LGBT community rallies for Jehovah’s Witnesses
Around the City Thursday, January 5th, 2012Serial arson fires called ‘hate crime’
An anti-hate-crime fund originally endowed by and for the LGBT community is likely to contribute an additional $5,000 to augment a reward being offered for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the perpetrator(s) of an arson hate crime against a San Diego Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall – a church noted for its opposition to marriage equality for same-sex couples.
The idea of contributing additional reward money is being promulgated by LGBT activists and community leaders, such as Nicole Murray Ramirez (who is also a columnist for San Diego LGBT Weekly), San Diego Human Relations Commission (SDHRC) chair, Bruce Abrams, and San Diego City Councilman Todd Gloria – among others.
“When I saw this had happened, I thought, ‘Hey, we should help them with a contribution to the reward fund – maybe with $5,000 or so,’” Ramirez said. “That should help find the people who committed this despicable act.”
According to Councilman Gloria’s office, deliberately set fires occurred at the Jehovah’s Witness Kingdom Hall Dec. 20 and Dec. 30, 2011, while another arson attempt was made at 12:30 a.m., Jan. 3.
Nicole Murray Ramirez, who is considered by many to be a local and national civil rights legend and a loud voice for the cause of LGBT rights and equality, told San Diego LGBT Weekly he has no qualms about helping a congregation that has long opposed the very concepts for which he has spent a lifetime fighting.
“A hate crime is a hate crime is a hate crime,” Ramirez said. “We’re talking about a church; a place where people go for spirituality. I may not agree with their positions against equal rights for all Americans, but I’m sure not going to shrink from my responsibility to stand up in support of anyone who’s been victimized by the kind of violence that kept our community in the shadows for so long.”
San Diego human relations executive director, Danell Scarborough, who worked with Ramirez during his multi-term stint as an SDHRC commissioner, isn’t surprised by Ramirez’ and other LGBT leaders’ desires to help the local Jehovah’s Witness congregation during its hour of need.
“I think the LGBT leaders I’ve come into contact with see the need to protect all people and stand up for their freedoms and rights, regardless of who they are or what they believe in,” Scarborough said. “Nicole has always said we’ve got to carry water for each other; that’s how we create a diverse and respectful community.”
Councilman Todd Gloria, who is gay and whose district is home to the church on Adams Avenue, is also sounding a call for support for the local Kingdom Hall congregation and for information about the crime.
“San Diegans must stand together against these senseless acts,” said Gloria. “I encourage anyone with information about the crimes to tell the authorities. Crime doesn’t pay, but helping catch the responsible criminals may yield a reward.”
Metro Arson Strike Team is currently investigating the crime. Anyone with information related to the arson is asked to call arson investigators at 619-236-6815, or to remain anonymous, calls can be made to San Diego County Crime Stoppers at 888-580-8477 or send an anonymous text or Web tip at sdcrimestoppers.com.
Short URL: http://lgbtweekly.com/?p=19425
Posted by LGBT Weekly
on Jan 5, 2012. Filed under Around the City.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0.
You can leave a response or trackback to this entry
I applaud you for your expression of human solidarity. However, you clearly have little grasp of this ‘church’ and it’s practices. “creating a diverse and respectful community” is far beyond what they are capable of. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not respect anyone but each other and the householder they’re calling on, up to the point when they are inevitably rejected. You are almost literally pissing up a rope.
That must be why they dont go to war or take sides in political feuds…their global disrespect everyone.
Mr Riches, you know obviously very little about these people. I have been acquainted with these people for nearly 40 years now and can tell you, on the whole, they are the kind of people you’d wish for neighbours. They don’t lie, cheat, steal, they mind their own business, and yet they would give you the shirt off their backs, if necessary. They call regularly with the Bible with a positive messages of Peace & security for the future, at a time when people needs good news the most..
They come as close to Jesus and his 1st century disciples as you can come, according to the Encyclopedia Canadiana. In other words, as a group, they come closest to primitive Christianity as you could find.
According to an editorial in the Sacramento Union, “Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, there would be and end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king”.
Based on what full scale perspective?
Alexis Klatt must represent the promotion of propaganda branch of the Watchtower SOCIETY. Every time Jw’s talk about their organization they are lying. They cheat potential converts with their “bait and switch”. pretending to offer bible studies when in reality they are indoctrinating their victims with Watchtower ideology. They steal their victims right to conscience. However they DO mind their own business, it’s a polite way of explaining their “group think” as they are little spies on each other. Yes people need the good news, and those who find it are not Jw’s or are soon to be Ex-Jw’s. Yes the governing body would have its drones expound that they are close to 1st century Christians. But does that mean that they are close to Jehovah, or better yet is Jehovah close to them. They preach a negative religion, the same Christ warned against in his message to the Scribes and Pharisees. Contorting and re-wording the scriptures to fit Watchtower beliefs. Suffice it to say that if all the world were to live by the creed of JW’s self hatred, cruel justification for unchristian behavior and psychological distress would rear its ugly head as the Governing Body would reign supreme.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not and never involved in politics. They dont vote, dont lobby and cant be elected. Within their organisation and members they cant accept same-sex marriage. However they think its up to anyone without their organisation to live life as they think its right
emeth
You are not being entirely honest in your statements and as such you are quite possibly a victim of Jehovah’s Witness propaganda. The Association of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Europe is a political lobby group which has its lobbying office in Belgium and operates primarily as an NGO in Europe through the OSCE. (Google it and when you get to OSCE web site type in the search box “Jehovah’s Witnesses”)
Also, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses Inc. (CCJW) here in the US is actively involved in political lobbying (but not campaigning) and is active in trying to influence government legislation.
So much is the CCJW involved in political lobbying that it had to put a stop gap measure in its own official Certificate of Incorporation in Article IX which says “No substantial part of the activities of the corporation shall be the carrying on of propaganda, or otherwise attempt to influence legislation…”
As long as the “carrying on of propaganda” and the lobbying of politicians as an “attempt to influence legislation” does not individually form more than 50% of the work of the Jehovah’s Witness corporation (i.e. the SUBSTANTIAL part) then this is acceptable.
Of course, the wording of the above allows for a combined total of 99% of all activities being the promoting of propaganda and lobbying.
No doubt part of the propaganda and the lobbying includes informing others that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not engage in propaganda or lobbying.
The Jw’s “lobby” when they view that their rights are under threat. They have since their founding, and I don’t find this particularly problematic.
At question here is the author’s statement “a church noted for its opposition to marriage equality.” Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves do not permit such things in their organization, but to suggest they lobby the government on such matters, as you are doing here, does not make much sense. What would their leverage be, since their members do not vote nor do they participate in political campaigns? They’d go door to door even more often in a congressperson’s district?
Anyway, I don’t know what the author meant by the statement above, but it’s not correct to say JW’s oppose marriage equality in general. They do in the Kingdom Hall. Outside, they have no dog in that fight.
A sick arsonist’s deed must be deeper than an issue of mere marriage status opinion. Most of the Republican Party opposes that as can be seen by recent TV debates. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t advertise their opinions and merely take most of them from what they feel the Bible teaches. If the arsonist were just after ‘justice’ it would be targeting everyone with that view and that probably would be other churches as well as half the population.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “opposition to marriage equality for same-sex couples.” Jehovah’s Witnesses are politically neutral and do not vote; therefore, they will never interfere with marriage equality rights laws. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not condone homosexuality on what they see as a moral issue, but will never advocate violence or political opposition to those that chose to be homosexual.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are NOT Homophobic, lets put it that way, although homosexuality is not for them.
Not homophobic? If you come out as gay while a JW, they disfellowship (excommunicate) you and all your JW friends and family are no longer allowed to even speak with you outside of “necessary family business”.
They may not be violent, they may not be active in promoting hateful laws, but they are *definitely* homophobic. *Catholics* are less homophobic, in that they view homosexuality as a sin, but not an excommunicate-able offense.
Disfellowshipping is in perfect harmony with the scriptural command at 1 Corinthians 5:13, to “remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
Everyone who becomes a baptized Witness is well aware of the Bible’s moral standards on homosexuality and other forms of fornication, and they agree to live by them. No one is forced to do this.
They are also well aware of what can happen if they decide to no longer live by those standards, and implicitly agree to them when they get baptized.
What’s more, if such a person leaves such practices behind they can be warmly welcomed back into the congregation.
A little leaven ferments the whole lump. If such practices were condoned they would become widespread.
Would you rather that they allow all sorts of wicked practices and sweep them under the rug by moving sex offenders to other Kingdom Halls? Sound familiar?
I am impressed with the LGBT group to stand up for the freedoms of JWs and possibly set up a reward fund in the finding of the arsonist(s). I too, hope the investigators find the arsonist(s) as soon as possible. Hate crimes must meet justice.
The irony is that JWs will never ever stand up with the LGBT group in any case. Their policy is to disfellowship/shun any member who are gay, even toward their own family member. Even if any JWs leaves their organization and express their belief has changed then the former members are denounced as “apostates” and that such individuals are considered “mentally diseased.”
It is so ironic how JWs cry out for their own freedom but be so intolerant of other groups.
Sorry, but that is not true. J.W.’s will not disfellowship/shun any member who is homosexual. It is only those who practice homosexuality. The same is true with alcoholics. Alcoholics do not get disfellowshipped. Only those that practice getting drunk. It may be a technicality in your eyes, but an important clarification.
Interesting how you put a kernel of truth in with your half truths. No, we will not get involved with politics in any form. We object to homosexuality on the basis that the Bible condemns the practice. But note what 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says on the matter. “What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators….., nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men…… will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”
The PRACTICE of that is condemned, but “that is what some of you WERE”. So this proves that we are not as the writer here yells and tries to convince everyone here we are bad people. Gayle McCurdy also seems not to understand the meaning of the word “neutrality”. It means others are free to do whatever they want. We will merely teach what Jehovah God has to say abouit matters through the Bible. We take no part either for or against mosdt anything someone else wants to do unless it affects us directly unfairly. We will not be marching in any parades for or against anything as others are free to do as they wish.
It needs to be stated what has been lost these days is taking personal responsibility for ones actions. This is how Jehovah has, is and will view things. So although everyone is free to do as they wish–just so long as they know there will be consequences to being for or against having Jehovah God’s viewpoint on matters. Literally a matter of life or death. We of Jehovah’s Witnesses will have no part in that either except we will be judged alongside the rest of humanity.
Actually it is because of the many fights in the courts that LGBT is able to speak freely as they do. Everyone that becomes a JW knows about disfellowshipping and why and how it is applied. It is only those that speak out lies about the JW’s that are considered apostate. You had better get your facts straight before you comment.
Can you think of no better place to send five thousand dollars? What about a shelter for battered women who run from their abusive Jehovah’s Witness husbands? Or, you could donate money to the silentlambs.org… an organization for all the sexually abused children that the Jehovah’s Witnesses routinely cover up.
Or, hey, you could buy some homophobic, mysoginistic cult members some new curtains in some misguided attempt to show that you’re the bigger person. Curtains for homophobes are nice, too. Later tonight, I’m buying some socks for the KKK.
Personally, I’d like to see your money be used to raise awareness about how Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult. You appear to have co-opted the incident to grab headlines for your own organization without doing much research into what may have drove a person to commit this type of crime.
p.s. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t call their place of worship a church. They don’t want to be associated with “pagan” churches, that’s why they call their buildings “Kingdom Halls.”
sincerely,
- Kyria Abrahams
author of I’m Perfect, You’re Doomed – Tales From A Jehovah’s Witness Upbringing
Ok I feel strangely compelled to thank the LBGT community to support the investigation of the aron investigation as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. not strange because it is the LBGT, but because the comments. I’m a JW. It is true there are no open LBGT JWS (that seems like a lot of acronyms). As some one who is a JW and known a number of gay JW, as well as being related to a few non JW very active members in the LGBT community I applaud the action. I have dinner several times a year with my LGBT activist family and we discuss politics and social issues amicably. Yes JW are never going to allow gay marriage in a Kingdom Hall. On the other side they will never enter an election booth to fight for right wing politics. I’m disappointed with Kyria, but then again if you portray yourself as an author but are a one trick pony, i understand beating that horse to death.
Way to work in an ad for your crappy book. Not opportunistic or self-centered at all.
Pointing out who she is is totally topical and relevant. Self-centered would be if she didn’t care who else suffered and never wrote a comment at all.
Agreed. As another person who escaped this violent, cultish religion, I don’t think money should be used to help them. Arson is awful, but coming forward to hand money to help a JW cause is helping a religion that portrays itself as upstanding by hiding the spousal abuse, child molestation, oppression of LGBT people, psychological torture, and terror it keeps its members in. The level of control is mind-blowing, and is used to keep people fearfully in line. The overall goal of this group’s teachings is that you must devote all of your time, energy, and money to them (they are against education and careers) as you wait for an angry, violent God to kill everyone except JWs. Their love to publish depictions of the bloodbath of Armageddon.
Even after I left this cult, I was still indoctrinated by them. It was interestingly, only after reading I’m Perfect, You’re Doomed that I was able to process the absurdities of my upbringing and begin a long deprogramming journey.
I know it seems like the “nice” thing to do, stepping forward to help a church, and that does sound like a good citizen behavior on the surface, but please research these people (perhaps jwfacts.org who I am not affiliated with but found helpful) and realize what you’re supporting.
Very well said. I applaud your comments.
The phrase “a church noted for its opposition to marriage equality for same-sex couples.” should have been tweaked a bit. While we believe the Bible’s view against same-sex marriage, we do not actively oppose in any way the practice except through the preaching of the Bible’s message. Since we don’t vote, buy bill-board space or appear on TV or radio programs our opposition is strictly religious in nature. We hate the sin not the sinner. I appreciate your coverage of this hate crime. I find it fascinating that Nicole Murray Ramirez has contributed money toward a reward. Thank you Ms. Ramirez.
Wow, that sure is an easy way out – “we condemn the sin, not the sinner”. You say you do not actively oppose the homosexual practice? So tell me this – your teachings clearly claims that 99% of the earth’s population will soon (well, it has been soon for about a hundred years now) be extinguished, and many of those will be for one reason only – they are homosexual and practice their love with a loved one. Is that not opposing homosexual practice? The other 90% of those who will be killed by your loving god may simply have deserved this fate by being peaceful buddhists, peaceful agnostics looking to find answers and doing their best to save the earth, abused young people who haven’t found their footing in life yet. The list goes on and on. Not to mention the complete cutting of family ties when one member decides your teachings is not for them.
Shhhh…Nobody tell Robin Morgan that Nicole Murray Ramirez is a man, not a “Ms.”
Robin sure does gloss over how JWs reject and shun homosexual members, including children/teens.
This is a gay ex JW here, it would be ironic if the person who set the fire, was a disgruntled LGBT jw’-possibly for the way he/she was treated by the jw’s when they found out he was not hetero…. and of course setting the fire would be wrong to do, I think the money should go to homeless people thrown out of their homes (especially LGBT youth that get thrown out of they homes of jw parents all the time, this I can document,) or perhaps a no kill animal shelter, but I do think their intentions are good, just a bit more info would help them see the light. My feeling is that there is more need for the young gay person who is discovering that he/she is not like others to be “loved and accepted unconditionally” so that they do not feel suicide is the only answer or be throw out of their homes and cut off from family/friends. This is something that jw’s do all the time. It is very difficult for them to comprehend that “thier” child could be anything but straight. If I could choose what to do with the money I would have the jw’s attend classes on understanding their gay son or daughter and teach them how to love someone that is different. Besides they have insurance and I’m sure it covers things like this.
In our publications, we freely admit that many of our members do at times feel attracted to people of the same gender. However, in the same way that heterosexual unmarried members refrain from fornication, these persons refrain from homosexual acts. They are welcome full members of the congregation.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not hate homosexuals and do not take political stances on gay marraige.
This is like the NAACP donating to a KKK community center because someone hated the KKK and decided to burn a building down.
JWs will sugar coat their beliefs to the public, but there are many JWs, especially recent converts, who have no idea how awful the organization has treated homosexuals who were baptized too young, or came out while a JW.
And, the shame for JWs who are gay and have to get married and suppress who they really are or lose custody of children, etc.
Their only mission is to make things seem light-hearted to gain converts, then once a person is baptized, it’s either play ball or be ready for a bumpy ride.
While I applaud your open mindedness and commitment to justice,I must say that your $5,000 would be better spent on the LGBT jw youngsters who are summarily kicked out of their parents’ homes and shunned by family and friends for simply being honest about who they are. There certainly are plenty of them out there who have no support other than ex-jw online communities.
I applaud anyone who will stand for religious freedom and to help victims of hate crimes. The article does indicate a lack of knowledge of the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. They don’t vote or serve on a jury. They would never stand up for a church victimized by an arsonist. They would never contribute money for any charity such as the Red Cross or Salvation Army. Indeed, they consider doing so a great sin which would endanger a JW to be called into a “judical hearing,” and possibly disfellowshiped, shunned, and consigned to eternal destruction. My book, Rescuing Slaves of the Watchtower has details.
That money could have been used so much more wisely. Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that homosexuals will be murdered by God at Armageddon. In fact Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that everyone who isn’t a member of their religion will be murdered by their loving God at Armageddon. Any homosexual child born into the religion is expelled and shunned by all members including family. Family are forbidden to even speak to the expelled person or else they will be expelled as well. The leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses (The Governing Body) seek to isolate the followers from outsiders so that if anyone leaves the group they are completely cut off from their entire social support group. There is simply no honorable way to leave the group. Anyone who escapes the group is labeled as being wicked, rebellious, or leaving so that they can “sin”. I repeat there is no way to honorably escape the religion. I’ve seen countless families (including my own) destroyed because of the extreme teachings of this “religion”.
So while I admire Mr Murray’s efforts, I feel that they could have been directed towards a more noble and worthy cause. Anyone interested in what the Jehovah’s Witnesses actually teach should also visit jwfacts.com. They will not be honest about their beliefs if asked difficult questions when there at your door attempting to recruit you into their apocalyptic high control religion.
Jehovah’s witnesses follow strictly Bible principles.
We have a right to do so. Jesus Christ our Commander and Chief followed strictly those same principles. If one of Jehovah’s Witnesses PRACTICES a way of life in opposition to Bible principles he or she will be dis fellow shipped. First Century Christians did the SAME THING.
It simply means we will not associate with that person nothing more. We have a right to do so. Its called freedom to decide who you want to associate with.
If Jesus had lived today, Jehovah’s Witnesses would have expelled him. That’s how much you follow Jesus. He would NEVER do what you do today with your shunning of family members. Jesus would have gone in to the Kingdom’s Hall and pushed the tables over, just as he did with the farisées in the Synagogue. Please, do not claim you are any followers of Jesus, you are so far away from his teachings of love.
Are Jehovah’s Witnesses taught to hate? Let us find out. The following quotations come straight from Jehovah’s Witnesses publications.
Awake 1997 Dec 8
“Should Christians Hate Homosexuals?
The Bible admonishes: O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad. (Psalm 97:10) Hence, Christians are expected to hate every practice that violates Jehovahs laws. Some people may even react with stronger feelings of aversion or disgust toward homosexuality than toward other types of immorality, viewing homosexuality as an unnatural sexual perversion.”
Awake 1989 July 8
“Since sexual immorality is based largely on self-gratification, it often leads to more debased acts. And fallen human nature being what it is, once an act becomes commonplace, its excitement tends to wane. Thus, some homosexuals have gone on to sadomasochism and other vile practices . One Bible commentary says that the effect of such base and unnatural passions … tended to debase the mind; to sink man below the level of the brute; to destroy the sensibility. A Bible scholar grouped homosexuality with crimes, which were utterly inconsistent with reason, nature, and their own and each others welfare.”
Watchtower 1979 Mar 15
“Some customs involve practices so gross that they are detestable to Jehovah, and, hence, to his people. Among such practices are sodomy, bestiality, homosexuality, incest and other forms of sexual immorality… Thus we see Jehovahs viewpoint of such vile practices. But what about today? Are these practices common in your country? What is the situation in your own neighborhood? Is it not true that some nations are even changing their laws so that homosexuality no longer is punishable by law and homosexuals are looked on as respectable in the community? Just as in the days of the ancient Israelites and the early Christian congregation, such practices are repulsive to all those who want to become holy in all their conduct.”
Watchtower 1976 Feb 15
“In recent years, homosexuality has swept the world. These homosexuals claim that they are ‘bringing it out of the closet’ and they brag by saying, ‘We are proud to be such.’ It was apparent that this erosion of moral standards could pose a danger or threat for God’s holy people, so the congregations were alerted and wrongdoers were cleaned out. Likewise, unclean practices, such as masturbation, which can be a steppingstone to homosexuality, have been dealt with in a serious, yet understanding, way, to help individuals keep clean and pure in Jehovah’s eyes.”
Your Youth – Getting the Best out of It (1976)
“In fact, masturbation can lead into homosexuality. In such instances the person, not satisfied with his lonely sexual activity, seeks a partner for mutual sex play. This happens much more frequently than you may realize. Contrary to what many persons think, homosexuals are not born that way, but their homosexual behavior is learned. And often a person gets started when very young by playing with another’s sexual parts, and then engaging in homosexual acts.”
Watchtower 1974 July 15
“THE GODLY QUALITY OF HATE
You have seen the benefit of godly love, but do you know how to hate? The Bible psalmist did, and said: “O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad.” Also, he said: “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” These very strong words are an expression of godly hate, and you too must have this quality to be pleasing to God.”
Watchtower 1961 July 15
“When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what
is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked.”
Watchtower 1952 Oct 1
“We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest…What do you do with anything loathsome or repugnant that you detest and abhor? The answer is simple. You get away from it or remove it from your presence.”
The irony. JW’s teach hate not only against the LGBT community, but anyone who does not become a member. Those who become member and subsequently leave are shunned by friends and family and called mentally diseased. This is not a religion of tolerance or moderation, it is a fundamentalist cult, promoting hatred.
It’s admirable that the LGBT group wishes to contribute to the reward fund. It proves they are more honorable than the cult they’re wanting to help.
I challenge Nicole Murray Ramirez to question a few Jehovah’s Witnesses on the fate of a homosexual member who comes out. Does the congregation accept them regardless of their sexuality? Will the congregation accept their marriage to a same sex partner? Or will they be disfellowshipped, aka shunned?
The Jehovah’s Witness cult has destroyed many families and friendships with their shunning practice. Many members who are shunned commit suicide when they lose their family and friends.
I also want to assure Nicole Murray Ramirez that the tolerance and support they want to give this cult will not be returned.
Tolerance should be a two-way street.
As a gay ex-Jehovah’s Witness, I am really torn about this issue. I agree that as a community we who are LGBT should fight against all hate crimes and show true compassion for all. I also believe that we should not repay evil with evil, hate with hate. However, the Jehovah’s Witness organization and its practice of shunning former members has ruined the lives of many gays and lesbians, leaving me wondering if perhaps it would be better to offer sympathy, solidarity and prayers, but not financial support.
In fact, I think it would be interesting to offer the services of a group of LGBT volunteers to help with the clean up and rebuild of the Kingdom Hall. I can almost 100% assure you that this offer would be rejected, based on the principle that Witnesses should not associate with those who live a lifestyle they reject. If they reject our supportive interaction, than they should not be offered funds that could be spent aiding our community and those in more dire need.
I totally agree with you. I do not understand why the LGBT got involved here at all. It’s not like the Watchtower society is in any lack of money, so sympathy may have been more in order, not a monetary support for such a inhuman organisation. And I’m not only talking inhumanity towards homosexuals, these people are highly Christian extremists. Do we really want to support that? I for sure don’t.
Hi
Everyone has the right to choose their religion and their friends. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not lobby for anything except to legalise the right to choose and excercise a religion. The freedom that this has brought to all groups to freely express themselves without harm to others is more than adequate reciprocation for any future sympathetic act when their human rights are violated.
The capacity for jaded and vitriolic views as expressed by those victims of JW-phobia never ceases to amaze. There is no more bitter and tortured soul than a “once-was JW”!!
Clearly Mr or Mrs Ramirez is unwavering in his/her standards and principles, regardless of who is being subjugated. That is to be commended and is a desirable quality. That said; why not defend a religious organization such as JWs? While most Christian religions either oppose or approve of LGBT lifestyles, the JW organization does neither. In fact, they are completely neutral in any type of political or social movements, including LGBT. Further, while some Christian religions fully accept LGBT in their ranks, there are many more Christian denominations that are hostile and hateful to LGBT. JWs do not hate anyone, which would be the opposite of being a Jehovah’s Witness. By the way, there are over 30,000 Christian denominations in the world. However, the JWs only go by what is found IN the bible, not what is said by ‘men’ at the pulpits. And the fact is that the Bible DOES NOT condemn someone for being ‘homosexual’. As so, JWs don’t either. For those that think all homosexuals are ‘shunned’ or ‘disfellowshipped’, the facts are different. There are in fact, GAY persons in Jehovah’s Witnesses organization. What is not tolerated, in the Bible, is the ACT (or “those practicing” Romans 1:32) of homosexuality. The act is clearly different than the person. Someone may not be able to control ‘feeling’ attraction to someone of the same sex, but they can control the act of it; which is what the Bible requires to be a follower in good standing of God and his son, Jesus Christ. It is true of any sin, be it adultery, drunkenness, violence, or an act of homosexuality. As someone once put it, “In my mind, I am gay, but in my heart I obey Jehovah [God]”. A JW chooses to obey God’s word rather than their own desires. And that’s all. No one is shunned for being gay, but anyone is ‘disfellowshipped’ for violating Biblical laws on sins, to include homosexual acts, if not repentant. Ultimately, it’s a choice. Much like LGBT is. Thank you for reading – and I do not mean to offend anyone, but the fact is that the Bible isn’t wavering on its standards and principles, much like Ms (or Mr) Ramirez. And that is a JW quality.
Being gay is not a choice. Being a brainwashed believer of a book of fairy tales and in the superiority of men over women is.
I find it strange that the JWs would accept this type of help. These are the people that they say will be personally killed by their God. They certainly wouldn’t help if the hate crime were to go the other way.
Wow… a couple of weeks ago you were telling us not to support the Salvation Army.
im so with kyria 101%.
What a misleading… If someone doesn’t agree with JW don’t associate with them. Some crime they commited? Prove it on court…
This won’t solve anything… I hope people do not remember to make murder normal. Please…
The person who has done these crimes needs to be captured and punished.
Also the Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witness need to examine their own hearts when they publish and find pleasure in viewing non-Witness religious buildings being burned, destroyed with people running and screaming with panic.
Someone said: “but will never advocate violence or political opposition to those that chose to be homosexual.”
Nope; but they damn well will give you “timely reminders” that you would have been stoned to death in the days of the Israelites. They will also tell you of the wonderful day in the future when all the homosexuals and lesbians will have their eyes pecked out of their skulls by ravens on the day of Christ’s glorious and triumphant return.
This is a warning toward mothers and fathers that sexually abuse their children taken directly from Watchtower (Jehovah’s Witnesses) propaganda:
“Did you know, for example, that mothers and fathers who stroke the genitals of their fretful babies to keep them quiet are unwittingly encouraging them to become masturbators later on?” (Watchtower, Sept 15, 1973, p. 568, par. 6)
I would not be surprised if the alleged arson was an attempt by an active member to destroy the personal dossiers they keep on every member.
I am Gay, and was raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. When my Family and friends in the Kingdom Hall found out, I was disfellowshipped and shunned by all friends, and I was disowned by my parents. I was told that because of being Gay that I may as well be a murderer or rapist as far as they were concerned. My Father had died, and I did not find out until 3 years after the fact while doing a search on the internet. In the JW org. being Gay is one of the most horrendous sins possible. Thankfully, after much therapy, I was able to survive the trauma. Unfortunately though, there are many, many who have taken their own lives because they couldn’t deal with the shunning and ostracism within the JW’s just for being Gay.
Even so, I laud the Gay community for being empathetic to those who would rather see them die. Never would JW’s do the same thing for Gay people, as it is totally against what they believe. The kindness of the Gay community proves even more to me that love for one another trumps the hate that JW’s have towards those who do not believe what they teach.
Thank you to my Brothers and Sisters in the LGBT community, I am very proud to be part of you and your kindness.
Like someone else here said – This is like the Black Brotherhood giving money to KKK to build up their altar that someone knocked down.
As much as I feel with you growing up like that, I cannot understand your taking on this. In fact, I find it slightly embarrassing and somewhat pathetic.
Gamaliel nailed it Jeff.
But thanks LGBT, our rights are your rights.
Should this be seen as LGBT members applying Rom 12:20? But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” [fiery coals 'soften' a person, as they were used to soften metals back then] Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.
If so, it’s very noble of them. When you’re doing good to your ‘enemy’ [I'll acknowledge that many LGBT might regard us that way] you don’t know if it will have your intended effect or not. But you do it anyway.
Here is another favorite from Jehovah’s Witnesses scriptures, Watchtower, February 15, 2012. We can here follow Selma, who is being physically abused by her husband but gets the loving advice from another witness to just endure and show kindness to her husband and all will be well. And voila – 17 years of abuse later, the husband understands “the truth”.
Selma recalls a lesson she learned from theWitness who studied with her. “On one particular day,” says Selma, “I didn’t want to have a Bible study. The
night before, Steve had hit me as I had tried to prove a point, and I was feeling
sad and sorry for myself. After I told the sister what had happened and how
I felt, she asked me to read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. As I did, I began to reason,
‘Steve never does any of these loving things for me.’ But the sister made me
think differently by asking, ‘How many of those acts of love do you show toward your husband?’ My answer was, ‘None, for he is so difficult to live with.’ The sister softly said, ‘Selma, who is trying to be a Christian here? You or Steve?’ Realizing that I needed to adjust my thinking, I prayed to Jehovah to help me be more loving toward Steve. Slowly, things started to change.”After 17 years, Steve accepted the truth.
Seriously, what century are we talking here?
I absolutely dislike this!!!!
I have as well as many other LGBT family’s and friends, been cause much pain by the bigoted hate of Jehovah Witnesses!! I was in the religion for over 25 years and was asked to become a ministerial servant when I decided that I could not because I had been living in the closet about being gay, I was completely cut off!! Not only did I lose my kids, my mother , and all the rest of my family and what I thought was close friends but I lost my job and my name was slandered by many in the religion and by my now Ex-wife. This religion is one of the most hateful religions when it comes to this aspect of life. they have no understanding and do not wish to ever be opened up to the idea of understanding the TRUTH about being in the LGBT community! I do not hate this religion!! I just think that for people that are living the TRUTH (LGBT community) to be giving money that could be better used is a horrible thing! I think that the people that decided to give this money should have better researched the religion and and not just blindly donated to people that obviously have the resources and ability to take care of themselves! I feel like this is just an attempt to make a name for someone and not to really spend the money wisely. There are many other people that could have benefited from this money. Especially those that don’t have the means to make it from what that religion or others for that matter have put them through!
I live in this same area and I know both of the people mentioned above. I will have to say that this REALLY dis-appointed me!!
Your truly,
Benjamin Kneifel,
As individuals most Jehovah’s Witnesses are peace-loving people. Many that have joined the faith have done so upon learning of their message of a peaceful new world where there will be no more war, no more death and everyone will love each other as brothers and sisters.
What are Jehovah’s Witnesses taught about homosexuality? Janet’s quotes above provide an excellent insight[1]. At the heart of the matter is the view the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Since acts of homosexuality are condemned in the Bible (Lev 20 : 13), even to the point of excluding one from God’s Kingdom (1 Cor 6 : 9, 10), Witnesses are taught such behavior must not be allowed among them. Any who openly engage in such behavior will inevitably face disfellowshipping (1 Cor 5 : 13) and subsequent shunning.
The pain that goes with being disfellowshipped can be tremendous. It like a living death sentence, since faithful members are taught to treat as dead anyone in a disfellowshipped state, not even saying “hello” if they see them. One can easily see why Benjamin (see post above) would take issue with this support of the Witnesses by the LGBT community.
Yet, even as an ex-JW myself, I think LGBT community leaders (Nicole, Bruce, Todd, et al) have made a good decision here. I take note they’ve pledged $5,000 as a reward to find the arsonist — rather than donate any money directly to the organization itself. Not only might this help the police find a criminal, but news of this may help any struggling gay Witness realize good and decent people exist outside the organization.
It is also true how most Witnesses act is more of a matter of obedience (Heb 13 : 7) than a personal decision to be hateful. In fact when someone is named at the Kingdom Hall as part of a disfellowshipping announcement the congregation is not told what “crime” has been committed. Thus most obedient members who shun do not know why a particular individual was disfellowshipped or if the judicial committee[2] acted justly.
If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I can understand you may object to my characterization here. But, just think. At one time non-baptized members were also subjected to a form of disfellowshipping and shunning by being identified as a ‘disapproved associate’ — yet, one day The Watchtower, reversed this stance. Suddenly a formerly shunned group was welcomed and spoken to, some even became baptized members.
Cheers,
-Randy
[1] Fundamentally the doctrinal view has not changed over time. However, one can easily see how it has been expressed as been toned down and made more palatable. That, I believe, is in response to over-all progress of gay-rights in society at large.
[2] An internal tribunal of elders, who judge cases in secret.
Jehovah’s Witness don’t involve themselves in politics.. they wont be our ally, but they wont fight against us as Salvation Army has.
There are better ways to spend scarce resources for human rights. Ask any gay person, such as myself, who was raised in that despicable excuse for a religion what it is like to be kicked out and shunned by family for the rest of one’s life. Do you also support their right to withhold medical care (blood transfusions) to the point of death? Do you support their right to the liberties that we enjoy as they spit on the soldiers who have won and kept that liberty? They do so by refusing to serve in our military. As to those JW apologists who commented on them in this thread, get a clue.
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight: an organization which promotes tolerance and understanding has made a donation which has given rise to this thread that seems to get more hateful and intolerant by the post. Does that about cover it?
Here’s my view: the #1 comment I hear when the subject of religion comes up is that pew-fillers are a bunch of hypocrites. That is, “a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.” Some scholarly researcher above has considerately posted quotes alleged to be from witness publications dating back more than 50 years. They seem to be more or less consistent. I wish that scholar would do the same for half a dozen other religions: Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. I predict that the 1952 publications of them all would be strongly anti-gay. But over the years most religions have retooled their beliefs to fit the times, while still claiming to be places to worship the god of the Bible. Plain and simple, the Bible does not endorse homosexuality. It’s just not in there. So it’s like people hate the hypocrisy they see in religion, and then when some group comes along and sticks to its founding principles, people apparently hate that too. Make up your minds, people!
And one other thing: that whole “hate the sin, not the sinner” really does sound like an empty platitude, but most of us apply it regularly in our lives. Your five-year-old carelessly spills grape KoolAid on your new white carpeting after being told to stay in the kitchen; your teenager ditches school and then gets caught shoplifting. You may hate what they did, but you don’t hate them. So it’s not only possible to hate the sin without hating the sinner; most of us do it all the time.
It’s not about “us” but about all the other LGBT lives they have destroyed. They hate us, and we want to help them?
After reading all these lies and hate mail I find it appauling that you say you have love for the human race. You take material written out of context. As for those that say they were gay while serving Jehovah you knew what the bible clearly states. Now that you have been disfellowhipped, you knowing this would happened when this was found out are Hippocrates. Anyone becoming a JW knows about disfellowhipping and what happens. If you didn’t want that then you shouldn’t have become a JW. Also what is taught that only those that do Jehovah’s will can be saved. That means there could be some JW’s that may not live if they are not doing Jehovah’s will. Also, those that have died and paid the penalty of sin will be resurrected as well not matter what their beliefs were and will be given a chance to conform to Jehovah’s standards.
“… and will be given a chance to conform to Jehovah’s standards.”~MC
The above belief system can only be found in the Watchtower publications and is not available from the scriptures.
That is what makes this fairly recent sect about as truth filled as the Mormon Church.
Alex, It is quite obvious you don’t read the Bible. The only sects are those of Christendom. JW’s are really the only one that follow the Bibles counsel. I could go on and on but is clear you don’t want to hear the Truth.
“JW’s are really the only one that follow the Bibles counsel. I could go on and on but is clear you don’t want to hear the Truth.”~MC
Lets see now. For almost two thousand years, no one followed the Bibles counsel. Then in 1879, Charles Taze Russell, (a high school drop out), started the Watch Tower. And so the Truth was born. Yea right.
All you and other JW’s do MC is spew out words without backing anything up.
I guess when you are expected to go to 5 brain washing meetings a week and only read about the Watchtower Society and its goings on from official JW sources then the wool can be pulled over your and anyone else’s eyes.
So in conclusion I would suggest that you start going on before you claim to end your comments, because in truth you have not said anything at all.
Your sect is a high control group, that only has members because they are afraid of being shunned by family and friends. Still there are great numbers leaving every year.
The Watchtower doesn’t impress when one digs a little below the glossy surface you try to put on.
After reading these comments, I do see that most people commenting do not like Jehovah’s Witnesses. Apparently, there is not much we can do about that. I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is as difficult for me to understand why a person is gay and I can understand how people cannot understand the witnesses.
Robots are programmed and only output the input that has been processed. So Jw’s ask what has been processed a translated bible, not transliterated,(big difference) watchtowers from a doomed point of view frequently often non-stop for generations… For what? To save lives? OR the more tempting motive money control and power?
Admit it expedite the denial process and move Forward please then the resurrection can start families can unite old friends can join hands people can freely choose without obligation your jw foretold: Freedom of Will member dat?
Hoping that I can marry my man Hans Schmidt, Sr. whenever my state allows same sex marriages. We’re tired of hiding our feelings, I was once a JW but got disfellowshipped because I was gay. It hurts!!
http://jwnewsnetwork.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/open-letter-from-the-children-of-jehovahs-witnesses-to-the-governing-body-of-jehovahs-witnesses/
Link above takes you to an Open letter from the children of Jehovah witnesses to the governing body ofJW.
The governing body are more concerned with money than they are with helping children within their own religion.
I find it so interesting that so many non-Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to THINK they know so much about them. I was raised a JW and so much of what you think you know is wrong. JW’s don’t vote and don’t get involved in politics unless it involves them, meaning unless they have to fight for their right to practice their religion. And as far as not being allowed to talk to a gay relative, that is wrong – it’s left entirely up to the family if they want to associate with them or not! I think the LGBT is awesome to contribute to this cause and shows that they are the ‘bigger’ people in all this. Leave the Witnesses (and other religions) in peace and get your own life!
Isn’t it interesting how those who oppose Jehovah’s Witnesses never point you to the real source of Bible based truth?
They may point people to another religious organization, but never do those organizations fit the Bible’s description of true Christianity, such as:
A united worldwide organization, preaching the good news of God’s kingdom, on their own time and with their own “dime”, who although hated without just cause, are politically neutral and would never take up arms against their neighbors.
Yes, it’s true: There’s only one organization, and one alone, which fits the Bible’s definition of true Christianity: Jehovah’s Witnesses.
No one can prove otherwise.
A plea to ANYONE studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses or has a family member who may convert to become one: RESEARCH this religion and put a stop to it asap. This religion will tear your family apart. DO NOT accept what the JW’s tell you at face value – look up information and their history of changing beliefs, how they treat people who disagree with them, how they deal/don’t deal with pedophiles within their organization, and discourage higher education.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a higher suicide rate than the normal population – for good reason, they cut you off from the “world” and then shun you if you question anything. You have no network of support if you leave, no friends. PLEASE research them if you know ANYONE interested or involved.
I’m Vernon J. Bouligny, innovation tubular inventor at Frank’s Casing Crew and Rental Tools. I am extremely gay and I think religion should stay away from my decision to live and love as a queer. I applaud anyone who can stand as I am with my employer. I have yet to tell my son and maybe I can get some pointers. I’m also going to resign from my job and dedicate my life to helping fight gay bullying. Love y’all!!!
Having been brought up in the WTBTS [Jehovah's Witnesses] in the UK, I decided to confide to my parents that I had feelings for a person of the same gender. I was told to go away and study the Watchtower and see what it said. I did and it confirmed my worst fears.
A week later I was called into what was then known as “The Presiding Overseeer’s” office [the library at the Kingom Hall] and was told that I would be called to a committee meeting where I would be asked to answer charges that had been laid against me.
It appeared that my parents had been to the PO and asked for help and advice in talking to me about the subject. Instead of offering help, he decided that I needed to be “examined” as to my thoughts and feelings on the subject and as a result of this I was grilled for 4 hours by these three men who wanted to know if I masturbated and if so how many times a day. What thoughts I had whilst masturbating and did it involve other people.
I was nearly16 yrs old and still at school yet they decided in “their wisdom” that although I had never engaged in Homosexuality, I was a moral danger to the other young men in the congregation. I was disfellowshipped. I had done nothing to warrent this yet later on when I had left school, I was told to leave home as I was no longer a “worshipper” of the True God Jehovah. If I repented and was re-admitted into fellowship again, then and only then could I return home.
How could I repent of something I had not done? I never went back and have had zero contact with my family in 25 yrs. I still live in the same town as they do and often see my parents and family members in the street yet they cross over onto the other side. If I am in the same shop as them, they will leave their shopping and go out of the shop. I have NO ill will or thoughts towards them. They are controlled in their thinking and to be honest if the situation was reversed and I was a JW and they had left, I would be forced to do the same thing.
JW’s would disagree and say that they have the freedom to choose their actions towards me. Yes they do BUT if they choose to associate with me, they will suffer the same fate as me.
BTW I am not Homosexual but a happily married individual. Most teenagers go through a period of self doubt, I did and lost my family through it.