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It always involves the bathroom

Commentary: Trans Progressive

“Jim Crow states passed statutes severely regulating social interactions between the races,” states a Web page for the Ferris State University’s Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia. “Jim Crow signs were placed above water fountains, door entrances and exits, and in front of public facilities. There were separate hospitals for blacks and whites, separate prisons, separate public and private schools, separate churches, separate cemeteries, separate public restrooms and separate public accommodations.”

“Some places had three restrooms; one labeled ‘white ladies,’ another ‘colored women’ and the third for ‘white men,’” is what the 2000 documentary film Out Of Obscurity, stated about restrooms in Jim Crow America.

Somehow African American men were considered sexual predators of white women, and that about a quarter to a third of lynchings were for alleged rapes of white women. “If it takes lynchings to protect [white] woman’s dearest possession from drunken, ravening beasts, then I say lynch a thousand a week,” said the first woman appointed to the U. S. Senate in 1897, Rebecca Latimer Felton. She was expressing her feelings about the alleged rapes of white women by African Americans.

I’m talking about this not to appropriate African American experience and say it’s just like trans experience – the trans civil rights movement isn’t just like the black civil rights movement. But we should note that pretty much all of the major civil rights movements in the United States have included bathroom and/or locker room issues, and often the bigotry against a minority population included alleged predatory behavior.

The tendency to reduce civil rights and integration into society for the disabled to bathrooms and bus lifts permeated coverage of the Americans with Disability Act (ADA) – probably the only one that didn’t have a predation element to the bathroom argument. Critics of the ADA argued that it cost too much to make public accommodations for the disabled, that it would promote frivolous litigation, enjoyed little business support and mandated federal intrusion while discouraging negotiation, as well as ignoring market forces. According to the Job Accommodation Network, one-third of workplace accommodations cost nothing, and in another third of cases the average cost of compliance is less than $500.

But the women’s civil rights movement is one where predatory behavior was implied. For example, Phyllis Schlafly was a major leader of the anti-ERA movement. As the leader of the Eagle Forum, Schlafly argued that the ERA was unnecessary because women were already protected by the Equal Pay Act of 1963 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, both of which barred sex discrimination. She also argued that the proposed amendment would outlaw separate public restrooms for men and women, implying that men as a class of people are predators who, in public unisex restrooms, wouldn’t control their deviant sexual urges.

And for the gay liberation movement, in discredited researcher Paul Cameron’s paper Child Molestation and Homosexuality, he stated that gay men were more likely to commit child molestation than straight men. His discredited report suggested 1-3 percent of adults who practice homosexuality account for between a fifth and a third of all child molestation – the argument implied gay men as a class of people can’t be trusted with children in public restrooms.

For gays and lesbians in the LGBT civil rights movement, in arguments against repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell put forward by the socially conservative Center For Military Readiness included ones that gays and lesbians would engage in leering at other males and females in latrines, showers, barracks and ships’ berthing spaces. Their spokeswoman, Elaine Donnelly, stated at a 2008 House Armed Services personnel subcommittee hearing that lesbians would take pictures of people in the shower, that there are “inappropriate passive/aggressive actions common in the homosexual community” that are incompatible with LGB military service. She warned of the prospects of “forcible sodomy” and “exotic forms of sexual expression,” and cited a case of “a group of black lesbians who decided to gang-assault” a fellow soldier.

In 1993, Commander James Pledger, a former commanding officer of the destroyer U.S.S. Arthur W. Radford stated, “[My crew is] repulsed by the prospect of having to shower in view of homosexual shipmates, as well as sleep no more than two feet from homosexuals.”

Should we not then expect that bathrooms, locker rooms and showers to come up when discussing trans civil rights?

As the trans subcommunity of the LGBT community looks toward a possible referendum of the School Success and Opportunity Act (AB 1266), we know we’re going to hear “bathroom bill” arguments against trans primary and secondary school students who are going to engage in predatory behavior. The tale of a female transgender student at a Colorado high school engaging in “harassment” of cisgender girls in school bathrooms is being spread by Matt McReynolds and Brad Dacus of the Pacific Law Institute (PJI). “This is a nightmare scenario for the teenage girls – some of them freshmen – and their parents at this school,” stated PJI staff attorney McReynolds in an early October press release. “This is exactly the kind of horror story we have been warning would accompany the push for radical transgender rights in schools, and it is the type of situation that LGBT activists have been insisting would not happen.”

And apparently this type of situation didn’t actually happen at that Colorado High School, as Cristan Williams at The Transadvocate has documented. But on one level it doesn’t matter that the story PJI and other social conservatives peddled is untrue. The painting of trans youth as bathroom predators – in the same way that men in “unisex bathrooms,” African American men in general (to include all public facilities in many states and localities), and gays and lesbians in barracks, showers and locker rooms – should be expected.

In civil rights movements, bathrooms and locker rooms are always part of the story for oppression of minority populations before they acquire ordinary equality under the law.



Short URL: http://lgbtweekly.com/?p=42190

Posted by on Oct 31, 2013. Filed under Bottom Highlights, Trans Progressive. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback to this entry

94 Comments for “It always involves the bathroom”

  1. Usually anti-trans crusaders hold out older, untransitioned mtf persons as “representative” examples of transpeople. That they are attacking a young trans girl is a newer phenomenon. If indeed hordes of “men” falsely claim to be trans for voyeuristic purposes, why then falsely generate a story around this girl? This is a desperate tactic of a losing cadre: terrorism by media.

    • I would say it is more a matter of older, untransitioned “mtf” persons being representative of the problem. In the case in Colorado, it became an issue because everyone was aware of the student’s presence. For some, this created a problem where one would not have otherwise occurred. If you cannot understand that many, perhaps most, females are going to be upset by the presences of someone they know is male, no matter how much that person might look female, in the bathroom.

      • In California they are up in arms over trans kids. It’s obviously not just older transitioners. Why throw older trans women under the bus? That makes no sense.

        And there are cases of mistaken gender identification all over the place. That isn’t just unique to trans women.

        I’m sorry, but this scapegoating is simply not healthy for anyone. And it’s certainly not an accurate depiction of the ignorance, fear mongering, prejudice, and dishonesty that permeates anti-trans opposition groups.

      • Contrary to what you might think, most other Females ARE NOT upset by trans Females’ use of the ladies’ rooms. In the case at the high school in Colorado, ZERO students complained. It was just two conservative parent who felt that the trans girl’s bathroom use was “inappropriate.” Not only that, but for each of those two anonymous, bigoted parents, there have been countless outpourings of support from other girls at the high school (posting on facebook), other parents (putting supportive signs and stickers on their automobiles) and prominent business owners in the community (putting signs in their stores).

        And in my experience as a trans woman living in small town Nevada, most other women don’t care whether they know about me or not.

        -Early in transition (when I looked Female but didn’t have a Female voice) an older lady I knew (in her 60’s) saw me in the ladies’ locker room getting dressed. She knew I was trans and decided to strike up a conversation liberal politics with me. My voice immediately gave me away to all of the other women. There were funny looks, but then we all just continued without issue as I changed out of my sports bra and workout clothed. No one made a complaint to the gym.

        -Monica, Erica, Judith, Sky, Emily, Tabatha, Lacey, Kady, Kristy, Sarah, Heather. These are some of my cisgender Female friends. None of them have ever had a problem using a public bathroom with me, or walking to our cars together (for safety) late at night. Some of them feel comfortable enough using a single-person bathroom with me as we chat and take turns fixing our hair/using the toilet. One of them apologized while we were in line for a stall and sat down to pee in the sink right in front of me.

        -The only women to ever threaten me for my use of the ladies’ room, was extremely drunk (and her friends all apologised to me for her). Then she went on to call me ugly only to be lectured on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (FOR EVERYONE) by one of my cisgender Female friends, Lacey. The woman who threatened me would later personally apologize to me, explaining how she had a bias against the LGBT community because she was having troubles accepting her Lesbian sister.

        Emily gets women confronting her all the time because she’s a butch lesbian and women confuse her for a man. I don’t. So NO, I DON’T understand how a “majority” of cisgender Females can have a problem with transgender Females going potty when my real experience with the issue has been anything but problematic.

        Here’s some advice to any rare women who do have a problem.

        First, drop the assumptions that other women are male based on their looks. That practice degrades all women.

        Second, if someone does appear ambiguous, then give them the benefit of the doubt (they may be butch Lesbian, trans, queer or questioning).

        Third, drop the assumptions about our sexual attractions. Emily is a Lesbian, but I never assumed that or even cared, and I only made a mental note of it upon asking her. I’m straight (andrphylic, attracted to men… as a woman) and engaged to a great guy.

        And finally; Fourth, stop assuming that people attracted to your body type are animals who can’t control themselves. A most-likely straight male janitor probably isn’t in there to molest you. He’s doing his job. A butch Lesbian probably isn’t there to molest you. She’s there to pee or change.

        By all means, be weary of your surroundings, but don’t go making a huge problem for people who are just minding their own business, not doing anything wrong.

  2. The reason, in this case, that it involves the bathroom…is that transgender people, in particular, male to female transgender people who have no intention of actually having SRS seem to have an obsession with being admitted to the ladies room no matter how much upset they cause.

    When I transitioned, I did not immediately charge into women’s bathrooms, demanding some imaginary right to be there. I took my time, first seeking out ones that were less used, and then as I started entering ones where other women were present, I was careful to be aware if my presence was causing any issues. As I saw that it was not a problem, I became more confident, and now I don’t give it a second thought.

    • Your story of starting to use the women’s room is pretty common. However it doesn’t at all coincide with your first paragraph. I’ve heard that stuff before, and it’s aimed at you too.

      SRS should not be the determining factor at all either. Some people can’t have SRS. Some people can’t afford it. Discrimination is rampant as well, making it harder to obtain. Some people are just afraid of the consequences, and even others are just not bothered enough to require and unnecessary surgery just to fit in. It is illogical for that to be some requirement.

      Not to mention the one simple fact: no one should be checking out what is in everyone else’s panties. Period.

      On top of that, trans MTF people get the major focus, all while people ignore the hairy, deep voiced, testosterone filled FTM dudes in the men’s room — the ones they wouldn’t want anywhere near the ladies room — but if things were applied equally would be causing true distress.

      The reason this involves the bathroom and MTF people has nothing to do with the reality of trans people using the restroom. It has to do with inaccurate stereotypes, prejudice, and even the misogynistic ways people view women, or worse the hyper-sexualization of MTF individuals.

      Over and over the complaints I read in this case are not real. They are assumptions of trans women always being men, of being like people wanting to change race or species, or of imaginary fears of what the future brings should trans people get equal rights.

      They make up problems. They don’t quote reports of real ones. It’s a campaign of fear without fact — and it’s effective because of mass ignorance and prejudice.

      • Oh, give me a break… I get so tired of hearing “Some people can’t afford it…” and discrimination? Shoot, in some cases, it is actually too easy for people to get approved for surgery. Truth be told, those who can “afford” SRS are almost certainly those who should not be getting it. If you had such a long and successful career as a man, you were a man, and are probably going to regret giving that up.

        The truth is, when it is handed to people on a silver platter, most decline. I worked for a major university that offers SRS as a health benefit. I worked, for a period, in a project that hired a number of “transgender” employees. Three were post-op. Of those who were not, two of us had SRS. The rest either flat out declined, or made silly excuses as to why they didn’t want it. When San Francisco started offering SRS as an employee benefit, it was predicted that it would bankrupt the city. They actually made money off of it. The insurance premiums went up about a dollar, and so few accepted the surgery, the extra premiums more than offset the costs. It is now being offered as a benefit to the indigent. Again, few takers in a city with a very large “transgender” population.

        Transsexualism is rare. The issue is not people who really are a gender different from their birth gender, but is, instead, those who are their birth gender, but who want to pretend.

        What is needed is the one thing most lacking…simple common sense. First off, if you can’t go in the women’s room without causing distress, don’t go in the women’s room. If you claim you really are a woman, then you should care about other women. If you don’t, then stay out for sure. Second, the whole FTM in the ladies room argument is also quite bogus. Six months or so on hormones, and there is no issue with them going in the men’s room.

        The simple truth is, you cannot change your gender. If you could, transsexuals would all be cured by “changing their gender to match their birth sex.” If you are not really a woman on the inside, then, at the very least, don’t go in the women’s room unless you pass. (And in this case, passing is the appropriate term, as you are appearing as something you are not.)

        And there is more than just the bathrooms involved. There are transgender extremists who are now fighting for unrestricted access to showers and changing rooms. They have fought to remove restrictions on such things from ENDA.

        It’s not scapegoating…it’s reality, and it is going to lead to a backlash that is going to hurt everyone.

        • It sounds like you lead a very privileged and healthy life. You’re lucky — but you’re not everyone. And you may be sick and tired of people talking about not being able to afford SRS, but that is because it is actually happening.

          If you have any research statistics to back up your assertions on trans women and surgery by all means post them. Otherwise they just sound like wild assumptions to me. Offer me surgery on a silver platter and I would even prove it.

          Transsexualism isn’t people wanting to pretend. I’m sorry your that belief runs so deep within you. I’m sorry if you feel like you want to pretend. But I certainly don’t feel like it. And I’m not pretending.

          Going to the women’s restroom doesn’t mean you are not caring about other women. You can care about others, but you have to care about yourself as well.

          You yourself said you’re using the women’s restroom. Do you not care about other women? Some of them are going to be uncomfortable just because you were labeled “male” at birth. But you’re obviously doing it anyway despite their feelings.

          I could keep responding to more of your assumptions, but until you can at least hold yourself to the same standard as you hold others, I don’t see the point.

  3. Nope, it is just an excuse. Even when it is effectively FREE, an overwhelming majority of transgender people say NO WAY!!!! They don’t want it. I have personal observation, and statistics from insurance. The same thing repeats, over and over. Offer it, and people decline.

    Again, did you not read what I said. First off, I am female. Second, I was careful to make sure I did NOT cause problems. Yes, I cared, and I care. And, no I have no more privilege than any other middle-aged woman.

    I held myself to the standard of not upsetting other women. Now I am a complete woman.

    You see what you want to see.

    • Wow, you are quite possibly the most misogynist woman that I have ever seen outside of a hate group, dripping with privilege and contempt for other women, and other human beings in general. Telling us all about how others aren’t authentic enough for you. And financing is an excuse?

      I just dropped $2 grand in my mother’s bank account that with her help will hopefully accrue to the $12 grand I need for my trip to Thailand. And the total is slipping backwards as she struggles to maintain the rent and utilities for me and my two sisters. How dare you make callous assumptions about people in situations you can’t possibly know.

      First off, all Females are Females. Socond, trans Females can pass because they are Females. Take some human anatomy and physiology: exogenous sex steroids, upon being metabolized by the liver or entering the blood stream directly by sublingual administration, bind to carrier proteins forming a reserve to be released as needed, readily diffusing across phospholipid cell membranes affecting male of female gene expression at the nucleus in no less than 45/46 (97.83%) of chromosomes. No, you obviously don’t care as you misogynistically throw them under the bus and degrade all women with your no true Scottsman requirements for being a woman.

      Yeah, your as complete of a woman as any other woman, except you’re a massive hypocrite if you have a trans history and call others incomplete despite the XY chromosomes and infertility that your trans history would indicate.

      • The real rub is this: You are a woman with a trans background. That is where you came from. There are other women with a trans background. If you don’t care for them as much as you care for the women with other backgrounds, you have just essentially discriminated against yourself.

        In doing so, you make things worse for yourself and others like you — especially those who have not gone through everything you have. You’re jumping in bed with people like PJI, throwing other women under the bus, all while trying to pretend you care about women and thus are a woman.

        But hating other women with a trans background is not caring about other women! Ignoring what other women think of you in order to pretend you aren’t causing problems — when they specifically say your presence and assigned gender at birth are the problem — does not mean you were “careful” or “did NOT cause problems.”

        You ARE causing problems. You are causing problems for the bigots. And you’re causing problems for all the women you throw under the bus and don’t support — all the women that if you truly cared about other women you would be treating much better.

        It sucks.

        • And I meant for this reply to go to the anti-trans trans lady.

        • Hi Amie,

          I kind of figured you weren’t replying to me, but I agree with all of the points you made and I just wanted to say thanks for standing up and adding your voice even when the misogyny is coming from “our own kind.” Just as I am thankful to all of the cisgender women who denounce the misogyny transphobia of other cisgender women, I believe it is crucial for us (being far into our transitions) to denounce the transphobia of trans people who use their progress to perpetuate a false heirarchy in which they are “better” than others.

          … so what you have to say is important (to me, and to countless others who’d otherwise be discouraged by the presence of unanswered bigotry in comments sections). 🙂

          • And insulter, when better insulted, cries “childish” as another insult. Happens all the time, so bless your feeble heart, oh childish old man.

            I mean really, classic TS separatist silliness. And people wonder why “true transsexuals” are irrelevant in medicine and policy (Hint: No True Scottsman). Yeah, most true transsexuals just realize the hypocritical idiocy of men like you. ^_^

          • Oh, I believe it, lol (my own great grandmother is 90+ years old). I was talking about a different kind of family, dude.

          • Hmmm, talk about a non sequitur…is it too hard for you to figure out how to post where your message makes sense? Well, no surprise there…

          • Hey, I get it now. Just found out that you’re Jennifer Usher of some wacko blog I once stumbled upon. Dude looks like a flame troll ^^

          • And I’ve known who you are pretty much all along. You think you are fooling me, but you are not. After all these years, your style is pretty obvious….

        • I reject “trans.” If you like that term, fine. I don’t. I generally reject transgender extremism. I find it to be equally as absurd as the silliness of PJI. I care about women, not delusional men. I don’t buy the insanity of saying that simply saying one is a woman “magically” makes it so. That is truly delusional.

          • Oh sorry, trans lady, but I am disinclined in giving any credence to your rejection of terminology, because you disrespect other women. We generally reject your separatist extremism, as we don’t entertain the idea of bathroom use by genitals, for which enforcement would necessitate lifting up every woman’s skirt at the door. We don’t buy the insanity of denying qualitative and quantitative reality. That would be truly delusional.

          • So, at this point you argument consists basically of sticking your fingers in your ears, and going “La, la, la, can’t hear you…” and insulting me by forcing a term on me that I don’t identify with.

            Actually, again your create a straw man argument. I have actually said nothing about enforcing bathroom access by “genitals.” I mentioned “common sense” and said that if someone cannot enter the ladies room without causing distress (i.e. if they clearly look like a man in a dress) they should exercise some discretion and show regard for those they claim, rather absurdly, to identify with. If, on the other hand, they do insist on showing their genitals, and some on occasion do, they should be arrested and prosecuted, but oh wait, I am sure you have a problem with that as well….

            I swear, this is turning into a debate with a grade school bully with a big vocabulary… Really, could you try being a bit more mature… And yes, denying reality is exactly what you insist on.

          • Yes. I’ll happily insult you in same manner that you insult women, and I’ll happily listen to you cry foul at being treated as you treat us. Like I said, that’s a typical man move.

            Nope, that’s you creating another straw man, as I stated that you entertain the idea of bathroom use by genitalia, and then I proceeded to demonstrate how the idea is not worth entertaining. Your “common sense” is “separate but equal” and it hasn’t been “common” or made “sense” in decades. I know Butch lesbians who look like men. Sorry, but no one has to dress or look a certain way for potty privilege.

            As for your faux inquiry. No, no one should be arrested and prosecuted for nudity in a nudity-sanctioned space. Distasteful, yes. Illegal, no. You should try being more specific. Ex] lasciviousness. For that, anyone should be arrested and prosecuted.

            Yes, I’m sure that you do swear — just like any other cantankerous old man. Are you really surprised? I, like other real women, can be as snide and vicious as necessary in my comments on a perv who can’t help but focusing on genitals as he entertains the idea of snapping nude close-ups to satiate his exhibition fetish by randomly showing them to strangers on the street.

            That you even think that way displays your true colors. Your fantasies shouldn’t be pontificated as involved in any girl’s or woman’s reality. That being said, there is legal reality. And there is medical reality. You lose on both counts, perv.

          • After you silly claim that shows you don’t even understand how the government works, it is clear that you are pretty much clueless. Oh well, your type is dime a dozen… You have no real arguments, so you release a torrent of silly insults as a smoke screen? Perv? Hmm, you’re the one who previously admitted to being in a women’s locker room dressing in front of women. Yeah, I bet you love sharing your shortcomings and forcing them to watch… Clueless, rude, arrogant… And with a closeted gay man as a lover…ROTFL…dime a dozen.

          • And after your silly non sequitur, showing you don’t even know how logic works, it is clear that you are pretty much clueless. Yes, your kind are a dime a dozen. You’ve no real arguments, so you get served in your own sauce. Perv indeed. I change clothes, you snap photos of genitalia.

            Clueless, rude, illogical, old… And with sour grapes (raisins) over my husband… dime a dozen ^_^

          • Is that really the best you have? Learn a new word, and otherwise parrot everything I say? Wow, even more classic… No sour grapes. You have a penis. If you think your “husband” is “straight,” Well, denial is not a river in Egypt…. Keep in mind, I worked in transgender research. I have talked to a lot of those like you, and I have also talked to quite a few of their Johns, whoops, I mean “boyfriends… It is quite amusing in a very tragic sort of way. Especially when some have surgery and find that their boyfriend, or even “husband” is no longer interested. Not that this is likely to be an issue in your case…

          • Actually, it’s the best you have, being bested by me. And I don’t have to learn new words… because I read.

            Yep, and you have one, too. Restructured, but a penis nonetheless. And it doesn’t matter to me, because I know what homologous tissues are. Keep in mind, your work was ~50 years ago and I’m a biology student. Johns like you fantasize about snapping photos of other people’s genitals, lol. Indeed it isn’t likely because my husband and immediate family are paying my way to Thailand… because I actually have a family and husband, unlike some people. 😉

          • Okay… Well, if you think basically parroting what I say, and throwing out childish insults is besting me, well, as they say in the South, “Well bless your little heart.”

            I mean really, classic TG silliness. And people wonder why true transsexuals want nothing to do with the likes of you. And really, talk about a straw man argument…snapping pictures of people’s genitals? No thanks, I’m really not into porn.

          • And insulter, when better insulted, cries “childish” as another insult. Happens all the time, so bless your feeble heart, oh childish old man.

            I mean really, classic TS separatist silliness. And people wonder why “true transsexuals” are irrelevant in medicine and policy (Hint: No True Scottsman). Yeah, most true transsexuals just realize the hypocritical idiocy of men like you. ^_^

          • So silly. So immature. And so delusional. Yet another bad joke of an extremist. I am something you simply will never be…a woman. You may pretend, but deep down, you know the truth. That’s why you are so desperate.

          • So silly. So immature. And so delusional. Yet another bad joke of an extremist. I am something you simply will never be with something you simply will never have… a woman with a family. You may pretend, but deep down you know the truth, and that’s why you’re so desperate to fit in by separatism 🙂

          • Ah, so trite…and so very wrong. Ironically, you posted that on one of my family member’s birthday. Care to try again?

  4. Ahh, so you’re female when other trans women aren’t? You’re careful but others aren’t? Sorry, but that double standard is completely illogical. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you’re not better than other women, trans or otherwise.

    You think you have some special pass because you believe “you have no more privilege than any other middle-aged woman.” Except neither does any other trans woman at your age. People are saying they are inherently being harassed by your using the restroom simply because you were “born male” (according to them.) That is PJI’s complaint!

    It doesn’t matter how careful you think you are. People are upset regardless. They don’t think you’re female no matter what you think. They aren’t just getting up in arms over “late transitioners” either — they’re lying about children now even.

    In the bigot’s eyes, you are not a woman. They don’t care about what you think on the inside. They don’t even care if you pass. And yet you cast those same eyes at other trans women in some odd and futile attempt to make yourself seem better or set yourself apart. But you aren’t set apart. Those people are still bothered by you.

    And yes, using a different set of standards for trans men is wrong. There should be no double standard. Beauty should not be the where the line is drawn.

    Feel free to post some of that data you say you have about trans people offered surgery on a silver platter — data which no one else in the world apparently has. Feel free to offer surgery to me and see what actually happens outside of those assumptions. (Or you know, continue ignoring that part.) Or maybe at least just wake up to what the bigots are cooking.

    • You do realize that you are engaging, rather poorly, in straw man arguments…

      Again, common sense is sorely missing in this area. For some, it gets in the way… And screaming bigotry is a popular way of avoiding common sense.

      Just Google San Francisco and transgender medical benefits. Beyond that, you do realize that such data as you request involves medical privacy. The reason that employers are increasingly offering SRS as a benefit is that it is rarely accessed. Besides that, look at how many people make excuses for not having surgery. If you need it, you will find the money. But many see it as a giving more credibility to says hey want it.

      • For something to be “common” and it has to make “sense.” Nothing about gender dysphoria is “common” and nothing about your position makes “sense” because it relies on a stereotypical straw man representation of others combined with a no true Scottsman fallacy. I advise you to take a college Math 120 class including a primer on logic and reasoning so you can avoid lazily characterizing your fallacious arguments as “Common Sense.” You’re not Thomas Paine, and you’re not tackling the most pressing issues of the day with your unconvincing rhetoric against minorities.

        And then you use medical privacy as an excuse (*ahem* now who’s making excuses?) for your lack of data, thus rendering your testimony anecdotal and as such invalid. With 0.5% of the population identifying as transgender, that is the entire point of covering SRS. It’s a justifiable reason to slightly raise premiums and profits while providing a valuable service to a tiny minority of people. This is the BUSINESS MODEL of health insurance: everyone (the majority) pays in so that individuals with individual afflictions (putting them in the minority) can have access to valuable services that enable them to better function in society. The reason why insurers are offering SRS is because it’s good business.

        And NO ONE needs an excuse to manage their own healthcare decisions. If an individual trans person decides against surgery for any reason (cost, travel, contraindictions, waiting for better surgical options), then that is THEIR prerogative. But I guess in your mind, trans men aren’t real men because they’re leery of having a chunk of their forearm grafted to their groin around an inflatable prosthetic… You are not a grand cosmic adjudicator over the authenticity of other people’s identities.

        Thanks be to women like Gloria Steinem who have real influence in their support for the authenticity and autonomy in others’ rights to self-identity.

        • ROTFL! I love it when people commit logical fallacies by using logical fallacies. You are the one creating a straw man argument, by misusing the terms straw man argument and true Scotsman. And my level of Math is a bit above 120, and yes, I have studied debate, so I actually know what I am talking about.

          Now, let’s see….I don’t know how much you know about HIPAA regulations, but they restrict such information. Again, do a little research on the SRS benefit and the surrounding debate in San Francisco. And as I said, I have seen it first hand. You are simply repeating truisms.

          Now, I agree, people have the right to choose to not have surgery, and actually if someone does not NEED SRS, they should NOT have it. I have seen more than a few cases where someone had surgery and it was a mistake. But, at the same time, if you have a penis, and you want to keep your penis, and they will take your penis when they pry your cold dead fingers from it, then I am sorry, but you put on your frilliest dress, and your sexiest heels, and prance about all you want, but no, I am not going to call you a female, or a woman.

          Now, I do appreciate your raising that lame old chestnut about FTMs. No, I don’t think they have to have a phalloplasty to claim manhood. Uh, I am assuming you know very little about the effects of testosterone on a female… The clitoris grows into what is, in effect, a small penis. Nothing to brag about, but it is functional. A relatively simple bit of surgery, including extending the urethra if desired, and they are quite well done. And there is some hope of even better procedures down the road. Now, if someone claims to be a man, but they hang onto their uterus and ovaries, and then get pregnant, I might have a few choice words to say about that, but I have known more than a few FTMs, and no, I don’t question their manhood.

          Now, you can self-identify all you want, but that does NOT mean I have to suspend reality, and pander to your delusions. Nope, that just isn’t going to happen. You can sling around all the club words you want in an attempt to bully me into PC submission, but I prefer honesty, and reality.

          I state an opinion, and then watch in amusement as people go to pieces because I won’t indulge their fantasies. Yeah, reality can be a harsh mistress for some.

          • Your “level of Math is a bit above 120?” What? Math knowledge isn’t measured like that sorry. Maybe the classes you took are, but I have taken high level math myself. And you’re not adding 2+2 too equal anything with even a single digit answer in your replies.

            Oh yes, and congratulations, you just committed a logical fallacy through appeal to authority.

            You should look up the logical fallacy involving the appeal to authority. Your claimed expertise of “Math…a bit above 120” and “debate” does not mean you “actually know what [you’re] talking about.” (It doesn’t even sound like you passed those classes.) Your dubious and suspect claims of knowledge do not translate to evidence of other people’s logical fallacies. You have made no logical connection between the two.

            All of those classes mean nothing when you can’t provide any sort of basis for your claims. Such things are not connected to a true/false claim about a logical fallacy in someone else’s writing. That is something you can and should demonstrate — if you were intellectually honest.

            You can’t even provide sources for your claims, but you’re saying other people are committing logical fallacies? Logical fallacies you can’t even address? That is a debate tactic too — it’s called being a dishonest troll.

            Also if you studied debate you would know claims must be backed up… Feel free to provide sources that trans people are being served surgery on a silver platter. Most trans people are not that lucky. But then again, I am looking at a slightly larger world view than baseless claims about one city…

            And if you really want to talk about logical fallacies, we can go on for quite a while about your posts. I see you using the fallacy of presumption, equivocation fallacies, circular reasoning (in your whole I am a woman but other women are not stuff), and probably more if I cared to get into it.

            You’re also like one of the biggest hypocrites I have ever met. I even provided evidence to support it in multiple replies. You just ignored it of course. Doing otherwise, again, would require intellectual honesty.

            Why not try some introspection and actually thinking about these issues. Work on that ingrained misogyny that too many people socialized male end up with. You and the world will be better for it.

          • 1st Para) “N-n-not, I’m not. You are!” Sorry, sweetheart, but I can demonstrate: “They don’t ____!” stereotypical straw man representation of the subject. “No true Female does or does not ____!” Do I even need to elaborate?

            2nd Para) More excused for your lack of evidence.

            3rd Para) Again, throwing people under the bus. Yep, because you’re a bigoted, ignorant misogynist that can’t respect others identities. Sorry, but if you can’t respect others identities, then yours is disreputable.

            4th Para) Ah, so ever present are your double standards, and yet you’d still find a way to throw them under the bus.

            5th Para) Yep, and that self-identity can be reflected in one’s own body, medical records and legal documents without surgery. Meaning you’re delusional and denying reality by default. Yep, because “PC” is a term for intellectually lazy conserva-tards who can’t keep up with the latest science and human understanding. And please, I do not doubt that you are sincere in your stupidity and denial of reality.

            6th Para) Yeah, you state an opinion that is factually wrong. Reality can indeed be harsh mistress for some, and your bigotry will not go unanswered. ^_^

          • If you prefer, Calculus…

            Well, the simple fact is, I do know what I am talking about…and I am rather bemused by your silliness, Yes, you clearly committed a straw man argument when you tried to attribute things to me that I had not said, and then proceeded to attempt to refute them. That, simply put, is a textbook example.

            I have offered personal knowledge, observed first hand. Are you suggesting I am lying? If so, I suggest YOU offer evidence to impeach what I said, or retract your claim.

            I have offered a simple suggestion, look up information on the debate over San Francisco’s coverage of SRS. I am not interested in your attempts at one ups man-ship. If you think I am wrong, refute me. You can’t, so you play a bluff. I’m calling it.

            San Francisco has offered coverage of SRS for over 10 years, and they now cover it for indigent persons under Healthy San Francisco. UCSF has covered it for over seven years. Numerous other employers do as well. MediCAL also covers it in California. I had SRS, and my out of pocket cost was minimal. And no, I was not privileged. I was actually quite underpaid at the time, but I held on to the job because of the benefits.

            I worked with a number of people who were “transgender” and out of about six or seven MTFs who had not previously had surgery, one had it. Three others were post-op.

            Baseless claims about one city? ROTFL! You do realize that San Francisco has a very large “transgender population,” a good many of whom qualify for MediCAL or Healthy San Francisco…. Baseless? Hardly. No, you are looking at what you want to see, and it is not the truth….

            No, I am simply shredding your attempts to make claims that are without merit. The simple fact is, most, the vast overwhelming majority, of people who identify as transgender (I don’t by the way…I detest the term, personally…) do not want SRS. They like having a penis (and yes, most are male born). Sorry, but that is a inconvenient truth, but it is the truth. Transsexuals (i.e. people who actually want to change their SEX) are actually quite rare.

            And your use of “misogyny” is a misnomer. We are not talking about women here at all….

            I’ve got news for you. I have worked in research involving “transgender” people. I have a lot more knowledge than you imagine, and I have given quite a bit of thought to these issues. I have argued with far better than you, and quite frankly, I find your attempts to be rather amusing… So, terribly condescending with nothing to back it up,

            And nope, not socialized male at all. They tried, but it didn’t take. But do try looking in the mirror.

          • Ooh, how did I miss this one for so long?

            1st para) Ah, so you were good at the raw math section? How stereotypically male of you. Either way, you forgot the logic part, use logically fallacious arguments, and know nothing of biology. 🙂

            2nd para) Anecdotal. Invalid, sir.

            3rd para) Look up the information which you, the claimant, says does not exist. No, sir, burden of proof lies on the claimant.

            4th para) Citation, sir?

            5th para) Anecdotal. Invalid. Unrepresentative sampling. Invalid.

            6th para) Statistics, sir?

            7th para) The only thing you are shredding is you’re infinitesimal shred of validity. I’m not a claimant here, sir.

            8th para) federal and state law, all reputable medical organizations, and the individuals indicate that we are talking about women, sir.

            9th para) I’ve got news for you. A high school student in the modern era has more knowledge and access to knowledge than a “researcher” who never made it out of the 50’s.

            10th para) Yes, you’re male socialization is showing, as you continue the misogynist exercise in futility of policing women.

          • Let’s see…classic, and erroneous misogyny

            A desperate lie…as it is direct observation.

            An attempt to dodge facts….

            Another attempt…

            Simply put, making a fool of you is not worth the effort. You know it is true, but you have a need to attempt to feel clever.

            I will leave it to you to look up the truth. You know, I correct (or you are a delusional fool) but I am not going to waste time looking up facts you will simply ignore.

            The truth doesn’t change, especially when supported by facts.

            Nope, just exposing your lies and delusions.

          • Yes, how male of you.

            “Liar, liar! Pants on fire!” You fail, sir.

            An attempt to evade posting facts…

            Another attempt…

            Simply put, then why are you still here, sir?

            But you are going to waste your time posting baseless, fact-free and logic-free tripe.

            Which truth, sir? Which facts, sir?

            Nope, just exposing your own bitter delusions.

          • Nope…

            I’ve been there, done that… I know how it works. I dig up the necessary citations…and you simply deny the facts…again. As it is, it is not worth the effort. It won’t make it past you invicible ignorance. It won’t change anything. You will still wave your penis around and act the fool, so no, I am not playing that game again.

            Deep down, you already know the truth. My wasting time, just so you can dig your heels in and deny more facts…well, it’s not happening. Now, if you want to strut and crow like a Banty rooster, have at it.

          • Yep…

            Still more excuses for not backing up your baseless claims with supporting details. And, ironically, you’re obsessed with penis. I’m guessing that your surgical results were less than satisfactory. Should’ve researched your surgeon, sir.

            And yes, deep down, we both know the truth: you’re bitter and stuck in sie 50’s.

          • Seriously, you clearly have some issues. First off, you don’t know when I started hormones. Don’t make assumptions. And since I don’t share you and Dana Taylor’s lactation fetish, all you are doing is giving me a laugh.

          • Excuses? Nope. Just experience and common sense. You have a very male need to goad women who don’t play your game and pander to your ego. You really are a silly boy. Albeit one with some bizarre sexual kinks.

          • Yeah, “experience and common sense” from the 50’s, lol.

            You have a very male need to police women: just an old man wannabe, albeit with some unusual kinks. 😉

        • Nope, no desire to police women at all. And you are the one with the lactation fethish….

        • Running out of steam? That’s lame, even for you…

      • It’s not my fault your arguments are straw men. I am just exposing them for what they are.

        And now you say, after ignoring most of my post, that you don’t have the data? That just makes you dishonest to boot.

        • I am saying that the data you are demanding does not exist. As I said, I speak from personal experience, having worked with transgender people. You are just playing semantical games….

          • Clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about, because the burden of proof for claim(s) lies on the claimant(s), not on the skeptics. Worst. Debater. Ever.

            Yep. You’re a misogynist, because we are talking about people who are legally and medically recognized as women, regardless of surgical status. Furthermore, all trans people on HRT are trans[sex]uals because they are… wait for it… changing the majority of their [sex] characteristics. You’ve no qualitative argument above their qualifiers, and you’ve no quantitative argument above HRT.

            And I’ve got news for you: your male socialization is showing, as you patriarchally disrespect women and attempt to control and define womanhood like a man.

          • ROTFL…

            Clearly, I think you are mildly amusing…

            Now, do you REALLY want to claim that someone with a PENIS is REALLY legally and medically recognized as a woman?

            No, I respect women. I laugh at delusional men.

            I suggest you read up on the concept of “woman with penises.” Hint: Look up the works of Robert Stoller, who was strongly influenced by a dude named Arnold Lowman, though you probably know him better as “Virginia” Prince.

            If you want to cling to your penis…you are NOT a transsexual.

            And really, thanks for providing some comic relief…

          • ROTFL…

            Clearly, so do I.

            Yep, according to the Department of State (Federal, passport), the Social Security Administration (Federal, record), frequently Departments of Motor Vehicles (State, driver’s license) and inrequently Departments of Vital Statistics and 17 States with anti-discrimination laws on gender identity. Also, doctors by default as they must acknowledge one’s qualitative basis for considering one’s self a given sex in order to affect quantitative bodily changes to that sex.

            No, you disrespect women, and laugh in your delusional hypocrisy.

            Robert Stoller and Arnold Lowman? Didn’t I say something at about intellectually lazy conserva-tards who can’t keep up with the latest developments in science and human understanding? Yes, thanks for confirming yourself. Hint: look up the positions of the: AMA, both APA’s, ACOG, ACPeds, WHO and WPATH.

            Yeah… None of them make requirement of surgery, for recognition, LOL.

            Yes, thank you very much. ^_^

          • Well, let’s see…. You are just so pleased that the government, for the moment, has engaged in pandering to your delusions. The problem for you is, if you were to get arrested and jailed, you will be placed in the men’s section. They will say, “Sorry, your birth certificate, Social Security, and passport DO say female, but…..” You might, if you are lucky enough to be in a more liberal state, get some accommodations (like being in a special unit for gay and transgender inmates) but you will not be housed with females.

            Now, if you think that throwing around a few big words is going to impress me, sorry…but no. Especially when you back it up with arguments that sounds an awful lot like grade school playground taunts.

            As to Stoller, and Mr. Lowman,…when I first read Stoller’s book, I thought it quite silly. Then, over the years, I had the opportunity to observe the behavior of some. I realized he was on to something. No, things are not as cut and dried as he, and a few others, have tried to make them, but they have identified the basis for some behavior.

            Now, if you are satisfied with a “politically correct” bit of legal fiction, that the vast majority of people would pretty much consider a joke (if we showed a picture of your genitals to 100 people, and gave them no other information, I doubt any, would say, “Oh, that’s clearly a female.” Actually, most would probably say, “Why are you showing me some man’s privates…are you a pervert or something?”

            So, yeah, if legal fiction, and political correctness (that only goes so far) floats your boat, enjoy. The rest of us will go on having a very good laugh at your expense.

            Oh, and when the White House changes hands, and don’t think it won’t, all those changes in things like Social Security and passports may well go right out the window, because they are not based on reality.

            You play pretend, and call it reality. But as I say, bottom line, your house of cards can, and will collapse. Your “womanhood” is not remotely real, just an illusion.

            Reality, as I said, is a harsh mistress.

          • Ah, so the opinion of a booking manager is the deciding factor as to who is considered legally and medically Female? Rrriiiggghhht. Talk about fallacy or misrepresentation, LOL. And let’s not forget the grounds for lawsuit under 1) housing discrimination (AB 211) and 2) public accommodations discrimination (SB 331).

            *ahem* Supporting details support (or “back up”) the argument. The argument does not support the details. Like I said, you are really bad at debate. Ex] getting it backwards.

            As for Stoller and Lowman, you cite a ~50 year old book as a relevant text in modern times. Sorry, but no, that’s not how it works. Science and human understanding are a bit more advanced now. 😉

            And herein lies the problem: I am not my genitals and you can not sever a part from the whole. So, little miss hypothetical, you are quite perverse in your thinking (as if you are thinking at all, lol). The obvious counter is a hypothetical — if we showed your karyotype results to a hundred people, and gave them no other information, I doubt any would say “Oh, that is clearly a female.” Actually, most would say “Why are you showing me some guy’s chromosomes?” We have a name for such illogical tripe: it’s called “cherry picking.”

            It appears that the rest of *us* will go on having a laugh at *your* expense, as you are outclassed and outnumbered here, and as “political correctness” continues on its merry path to “correctness” in the eyes of the majority.

            And now you come at me with baseless political speculation, LOL. Sorry, but the White House did not mandate the changes in policy at the Department of State, the Social Security Administration, state Departments of Motor Vehicles or Departments of Vital Statistics. Nor did the White House mandate the changes in policy for state anti-discrimination laws. Sorry, but they’re based on reality, and they’re happening all over the place. You fail. And you fail harder if you really think the White House will change hands to a divided Republican party whose branch is polling approval ratings in the single digits… as it continues to destroy itself with govt. shutdowns and whatnot. 🙂

            According to the: Dept. of State, Social Security Administration, state Dept. of Motor Vehicles, the state House and the state Senate. And the: American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American College of Pediatrics, the World Health Organization and the World Professional Organization for Transgender Health, it is *you* who plays pretend and calls it reality.

            Sure thing, dude, and your “womanhood” is not remotely real compared to mine, my dear misogynist wannabe woman.

            You say I’m fake, I say you’re fake, and reality is indeed a cruel mistress as you get shown up by a younger, prettier college girl with more accepting and supportive family, friends and husband than you’ve ever could have had. ^_^

          • Well, that does explain a lot… A college student…just shows, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and yeah, you have very little knowledge.

            I mean, you confuse politics and science…you have no clue about politics (it wasn’t that long ago the demise of the Democrats was the prevailing prediction…). Yeah, you live in a bubble, and it shows.

            And your insults. Old use some work… Standard TG silliness. My identity is quite secure. That silliness doesn’t bother me

            And really, you want to claim that Obama had nothing to do with passports and Social Security? A small clue… It was under Bush that many of the rules that were changed we’re put in place. Before Bush, you could get a temporary change of sex on a passport if you wer going overseas for SRS. I changed the sex marker on my Social Security in 1999, before surgery. Both rules changed under Bush, and again under Obama. Science has NOTHING to do with it.

            Get back to me when you actually have lived some…

          • Yes, education. Ever heard of it?

            I mean, you conflate political points with scientific point as a straw man and reference a ~50 year old book for you opinions. Yeah, you live in a bubble, and it’s been showing for decades.

            Yes, you reap what you sow. Standard man procedure: cry foul because women treat you like you treat them. The good part: I’m similarly secure and I that’s why I’ve no problem reciprocating.

            You think a the President runs the Dept. of State and SSA? No, dude, they’re headed by John Kerry and Jo Anne Barnhart.

            By all means come back, anytime. And don’t forget the sour grapes. Sorry… raisins…

          • You don’t seem to even know how science actually works. At least not real science. Worse, your understanding of the government is laughable. Do you not understand that cabinet secretaries, like Kerry and people in positions like the head of Social Security serve at the pleasure of the President? He can fire them if he wishes.

            I suggest you learn to say, “Do you want fries with that?” because you either attend a diploma mill, or you are very likely to flunk out. Because clearly, you didn’t even learn basic high school civics… Seriously, you REALLY think John Kerry doesn’t answer to the President? Really? That is incredibly ignorant… BTW, a lot of books much older than 50 years are considered highly authoritative. Guess what, silly boy, facts don’t deteriorate with age. Seriously, you really have no idea who little you actually know.

          • But the AMA, both APA’s, ACOG, ACPeds, EC, WHO and WPATH certainly do know how to do science 🙂

            Also, that the President appoints persons to positions does not mean the president called a specific shot. Non sequitur, dude.

            And I suggest you learn to say “Thank you, ma’am, may I have another?” because yes, I can serve you as much as you like. Nope, I aced civics. I’m just not stupid enough to non sequitur. Also, yours is not one of those books, and even if it were, so is the one which claims that a man can survive in the belly of a large fish for several days.

            Guess what, old man. It used to be a “fact” the Earth was flat. Except it really wasn’t. Facts don’t deteriorate over time, but you certainly do. ^_^

          • Yes, but they choose to play politics instead. WPATH used to be HBIGDA before it was taken over by extremists.The rest have been political for even longer. And again, you haven’t a clue. If Kerry ignores the President’s wishes, Kerry gets fired…

            If you “aced” Civics you clearly had an incompetent teacher, or forget anything accurate you learned. And no, it was never a fact that the earth was flat. You don’t even know what a fact is….

            So, yeah, go on making a fool of yourself. I find this rather amusing…

          • Oh, boo hoo? Every decision of every major organization has political ramifications, so cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it. Then cite POTUS Obama’s executive order to Kerry on Gender Identity.

            It’s a fact that you’re irrelevant, as you have been going the invalid argumentum ad hominum route. Yep, my grades/knowledge base are infinitely greater than anything an Alzheimer’s suffer like you could ever recall.

            So yes, you may have another, as this pleases us greatly, lol

          • Okay, so you admit it is all about politics, and not science…

            And there you go again… No one mentioned executive orders, but hey, when you need a straw man, just make one up.

            Oh well… I do love having some arrogant, immature child thinking that tossing out the lamest of insults is actually the equivalent of “winning an argument.” I mean, it keeps you from doing any real damage…. But, hey, keep trying. You are only making yourself look increasingly foolish, and preaching to the fools in your own corner.

            Oh, and be sure and tell your biology professor that females have penises, but take a photo. The look on his face, right before he laughs you out of his office, would be priceless.

          • Okay, so you admit you can’t tell the science from the resulting politics?

            Nah, you just mentioned the White House’s “control” which would necessitate orders. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Also, I’m interested to see how you think the Executive mandates state level DMV policy.

            And yet, here you are: and old man full to the esophagus of sour grapes at my youth and interpersonal relationships, prompting you to initiate the insults, and me to respond in kind. 🙂

            Actually my biology professor is a cisgender woman. And she refers to me as just another Female in the all-Female class. You lose again. 🙂

          • Ah, more straw and insults. And you can’t seem to tell a professor adhering to policy and stating scientific fact. Bitter? Nope. No reason to be. You are just another delusional extemist.

          • Nice try, but my school has no policy… Bitter? Yes indeed. Because the modern world allows me to just be, and be perceived as, another college girl sand hoop-jumping.

            Alas, old men like you may never experience acceptance to the degree of having another Female colleague caution you on having your fetus (in case of future pregnancies) tested for Rh factor due to their accurate reading your negative blood type.

          • Oh, she wouldn’t make that mistake if she saw you naked. And no, I am a bit past childbearing age, so I am no longer asked if I might be pregnant. But again, how nice for you that you “pass,” fooling people into thinking you are a woman. Even though you never will really be. Just angry little man, playing pretend. I have had the good sense to, well, separate from those like you, and for good reason.

          • And why would she see me naked? I’m not a lesbian, sir. So… you were obese? And now you’re old? Ouch… Indeed, how nice for a younger, prettier girl with more than a cantankerous old man like you will ever know. Yes, you have the bitterness.

          • Well, I realize that even simple reasoning is beyond you, so…”There, there…don’t worry about it….”

            I have to say, one of the unfailing truths about transgender kooks is, the less “legit” they are, the more emphasis they put on appearance. Nope, not bitter. Aging is something all women face, unless we die prematurely. Thinking that appearance is what makes you “a woman” is, well, very much a male thing. Very characteristic of the “boys in dresses” crowd. And almost always delusional to boot.

            Really, you are so foolish, and so typical of your ilk. The sad thing is, eventually reality will set in, and then, well, try to get help rather than doing something stupid. As arrogant and nasty as you are, you don’t deserve the fate your are speeding towards.

          • Like inductive reasoning through qualitative and quantitative analysis? Indeed, I recognize your simple, deductive tripe as invalid.

            I have to say, one of the unfailing truths about separatist kooks is, the less “legit” they are, the more emphasis they put on genital structure (over everything else that makes a woman a woman, and is more relevant in day to day life). Yep, bitter. And simple mindedness is, well, very much a male thing. Very characteristic of the “old men in dresses” crowd. And almost always delusional to boot: “I has a blown out hole there, so pay no mind to my big hands, big feet, falsies, broad shoulders, flared ribcage and narrow hips. I is a woMAN!”

            Really, you are so foolish, and so typical of your ilk. The sad thing is, eventually reality will set in: mine are real, yours are fake, and I can breastfeed. Good luck matching us with your silicone toys, sir.

          • Another vain, and silly, attempt to sound intelligent.

            And backed up by…nothing.

            No, you cannot breast feed. You might take a few drugs, and express some fluid (like Adana Lane Taylor, the fetid tic kook who made a fool of himself over that subject…and that is assuming you are not actually Taylor). Breast feeding would require a bit more. No, the more you yammer on, the more I see what a complete tans kook you are. Delusional, ignorant, and desperate. The perfect storm of trans idiocy.

          • Another vain, and silly, attempt to deny facts, logic and reasoning.

            And backed up by…nothing.

            Except that yes, I can. Mammary glands, sir. Mammary glands. Sorry, you don’t have them. 😉

          • Ah, nothing more to say on the mammary gland point, huh?

            And just FYI, one available procedure for inducing lactation sufficient to feed an infant (in those with breasts, like us younger girls) is called the Newman-Goldfarb Protocol. Pretty cool, actually. 🙂

          • Seriously, you clearly have some issues. First off, you don’t know when I started hormones. Don’t make assumptions. And since I don’t share you and Dana Taylor’s lactation fetish, all you are doing is giving me a laugh.

          • Yep, more excuses.

            I know you’re a dinosaur, meaning Tanner stage 2 at best with hypoplasia and likely ductal compression. And maybe even one of those cavernous “vagina” holes that were so common back in your day, lol.

            Feeding an infant is only a fetish to you because you can’t. Zing ^^

          • No, it’s simply a fetish. If you think that makes you a woman, well, as I have said, you are just a foolish little boy. I am having a good laugh at your petty little potshots. Oh well, keep trying. But you are just making a fool of yourself.

          • Oh well, then it’s a “fetish” for ~3 billion other women who have kids. Just one more thing we have in common that an old man like you can never know, sir. 😉

          • ROTFL! You are not a woman who has kids. You are not a woman. You will not “have” a kid. You are simply indulging in a rather bizarre fantasy. So, seriously, yes this is a fetish. A rather bizarre one at that.

          • ROTFL! Sure thing, sir. Tell it to my husband, our son and future daughter. So, seriously, yeah it’s only a fetish because you are incapable. 😉

          • It is a fetish….because you obviously get off on it sexually. Just like a few other males…

        • Anyone, including myself, who has been exposed to the right hormones, has mammary glands. Now, some perverts, like Dana Taylor, take drugs to induce lactation, as part of their fetish.

          So, I can that explains your silly claim…

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